Thursday, April 12, 1990


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At 11:26 AM, Blogger Gregory said...

I think I have had no greater joy in reading one of your articles than in reading this one, Loren.

Your reasoning is perfect, and your conclusions are as well. In fact, you "sola scriptura"ed your way right into the precise Roman Catholic view both of the Grace/Faith antinomy and the Assurance antinomy.

(Which, incidentally, is probably why certain scholars and pastors rejected the doctrine without refuting it. In their minds, it probably sounded too "Romish".)

When I saw the Weekend Reading was on this subject, I was very apprehensious, because most people who write on this (especially using "assurance" in the title) are writing from a Calvinist, OSAS position. I was delighted to see you cut through the debate and get to the Scriptural core.

For the question of "When is someone saved?" the Catholic reply is, "I have been saved (in baptism), I am being saved (as I continue to persevere in the faith), and I will be saved (when Christ comes and consummates His salvation in history)."

Blessings on you!
Thanks for the great read!

At 12:59 PM, Blogger Kurt said...


This was the first of any of your teachings that I came across (a pretty neat story how that happened) and I was rivited. The question of assurance of salvation has always been dificult for me to answer. I read all the scriptures for both sides and they all seamed convincing, and I found myself swaying back and forth between the two.

This blog did a lot to clarify some things for me. After reading the second letter, I just couldn't wait to hear your final conclusions in the third letter. However, it seems that your final conclusion is basically the Arminian. That is you say we are initially 'saved' when we first believe, but then can become back-slidden and if we die in that state then we will not enter heaven. If that is the case, then in what way are we 'saved' at our initial belief in Christ. You are basically saying that we can lose our initial salvation and that is exactly what the Arminians believe.

Not sure if I was very clear in my comments but I would like to have some conversation on this.

At 2:47 PM, Blogger loren said...

Hi Kurt,

The e-mail notification system was not working on this blog, so I'm not sure how long ago you asked your question. I apologize for the delay!

Here's an analogy I sometimes use. Let's say you were given an appointment to the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis. Transportation to the facility was provided. All of your uniforms, lodging and meals, all your text books -- everything you could possibly need was provided as well. Instruction was provided, time for study, everything. All you had to do was allow the intructors to lead you and teach you, and not close your heart to them.

If you avail yourself in this way, they begin and will complete a good work in you. It is their job to prepare you, but you must allow them to do their job (Phil 2:12,13). If so, then you will graduate and become the U.S. Navy's newest Ensign.

But if, on the other hand, you grow lazy and begin to neglect the lessons they bring, and in your heart you fret against them, you're never going to graduate (Heb 2:3).

If that happened, it would not be accurate to say that the appointment was taken away from you. The truth would be that you failed to respect it and walk in it, but instead, in your heart, you drifted away (Heb 2:1-3)

If you please, allow me to address the 'political correctness' of the situation for just a moment, because it was something I opriginally had to deal with myself. Calvinism is not a sacred word to me, nor is Arminianism, so I'm not necessarily concerned with whether these conclusions offer homage to one or the other (not to be disrespectful either). I think it's all about Jesus, not Calvin or Arminius.

Consider that Jesus Himself is the salvation of God (Psalm 118:21,22; Luke 2:30). Our own salvation means we are abiding in Him, so I believe this is the perspective to promote.

If you'd like to see some more background on this whole perspective, here are some further links that go into the questions of election, predestination, etc. from the same perspective of abiding in Christ.

By the way, this is an open forum so please feel free to ask questions, make comments, debate, disagree, or invite friends along to do so. As long as we speak the truth in love, as the truth in in Christ, He will prove Himself the true teacher and everyone will benefit in the end.

At 7:43 AM, Blogger Shawn L said...


Calvinist doctrine is not OSAS. That is dispensational doctrine.


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